Swear in the witness and let the perjury begin!
Hey! What's up? How was Florida?
Checked out the blog. Man, you have too much time on your hands! Ahahahahaha
What do you have against Moore? I saw "Farenheit 9/11". I liked it. It didn't tell me anything new. I was aware of much of the information that he covers.
Just wondering.
Sq.
Squeeze answers
Okay, I've encountered this before. You're not the only one to be turned off by Moore's grandstanding and shenanigans--but what about the message? Can you separate the message from the buffoon? Did you see the movie?
Plus, I don't think that he's any different than anyone else. Everyone has an agenda--and hoping to line their pockets along the way.
I tend to think the same way about our government. You don't think that they really care about us, do you?
Sq.
Yer gerddern right I didn't give you permission, and yer gerddern right I'm gonna sue! Sue yer right-wing-Republican-conservative pants right off!
ReplyDeleteDo you know any good lawyers?
Yeah, but they all work for the government.
ReplyDeleteSqueeze states:
ReplyDeleteI am the government and I care.
Huh? I don't understand this statement.
What message? It's all a conspiracy?
What conspiracy? Much of what Moore states (although he's not the first to expose such facts) is well-documented--the Bush-Bin Laden connection, our history with the Saudis, etc. I don't think that this is a conspiracy--it's proven fact. And if these things are true, shouldn't it make us wonder if our government has our best interests at heart?
I'm too
sophisticated to buy it, and I'm not giving him my
money.
Isn't it better to know facts from both sides of a debate? I understand that you're very opposed to Moore and his work (just interested--how familiar are you with his films/tv shows?)--but shouldn't you see "Fahrenheit 9/11" before commenting on it? A solution could be to pay for another film ticket--Spiderman 2!!--then sneak in to see Moore's film?
Or I guess you could wait for October and rent it when it comes out on DVD.
My point being is this--one might accuse you of following the standard Republican rhetoric of "Moore's a blowhard a-hole with a Democratic political agenda, blahblahblah..." without having seen the movie. You would have a firmer stance if you saw the film and started debates with, "I've seen the film and this is where Moore has it all wrong..."
Wouldn't you chastise someone for arguing about the war in Iraq if they knew nothing about it/hadn't researched the facts?
I don't think there's such thing as being "too sophisticated" about learning as much as you can about things, even if such topics are considered "bunk".
Sq.
My Reply:
Your statement was: " I tend to think the same way about our government. You don't think that they really care about us, do you?" I'm not sure what that means. Who do you think comprises the government? I work for the government. I have many friends that work at all levels of government; federal, state, local. They all care, even if not about you directly. Not only about their jobs, but about being professionals and doing a professional job. They care about everyone that they serve, even those that don't respect them or understand their function. I don't know which "government" you're referring to, but my experience with government is positive and reassuring.
It seems that you're espousing the typical anti-establishment, this is a horrible place, the whole government is corrupt, black helicopter conspiracy in everything party line. What is your solution? What affirmative steps have you taken to fix it? I probably take that more personally than I should, but again, I'm not sure what you mean to say. I'm not a crusader, but I believe what I do is important and I know that my government-slappy colleagues feel the same way. Certainly the government is filled with incompetence, but what isn't?
You're right, I haven't seen the film. I make no bones about it. “It's a fair response as far as it goes. But just for the record, I haven't seen the Bare Wench Project either. But few would argue I need to see it before I can form any opinions about porn movies. Such opinions might include: bad lighting, too many fat hairy guys getting in the camera's way, etc.” (Direct quote from NRO’s Jonah Goldberg)
"What conspiracy? Much of what Moore states (although he's not the first to expose such facts) is well-documented--the Bush-Bin Laden connection, our history with the Saudis, etc." Again, Your statement implies a George W Bush/Osama Bin Laden connection (a Democratic/Moore blah blah blah party line). It is NOT a fact that GWB has business ties with OBL or any other ties of any kind. Is Moore implying that Bush and OBL have met? Does Bush have contact with Bin Ladens from Saudi Arabia? Absolutely. But this same family has renounced any and all ties/contact/relation to OBL (Some theorize this is the source of his hatred). (Do people in California immediately suspect anyone with the surname Manson of murder and violence?)
These facts are well known, but what EXACTLY does this relationship contribute to the war in Iraq? Knowing more facts here will certainly shore up an argument, but you're not going to get them from Moore, even if he did know them.
The conspiracy portion of the theory and the movie is implying that because of this connection, that GWB took this country to war. Even a few seconds of clear thought moves this conspiracy theory into the realm of the preposterous. But Moore continues to provide his audience with "facts" that support his theory. You live in California and may have been to Modesto or fished in the San Francisco Bay. You have a morbid sense of humor and have had decapitated baby-dolls in your house, car, possession. You have drawn these things. You may even harbor murderous thoughts. These are all facts. Does that make you connected, in any way, to Laci Peterson's murder? Hardly. I'm being specious here, but I think I'm entitled, even if I'm not making a documentary called, "Toledo's Bloody Son" about your life.
The whole intro to the movie re the Saudi flights out of the country after 9/11 is ludicrous after you realize that the person that solely authorized those flights is the same person Moore lionizes in other parts of the movie (Richard Clarke).
I haven't followed Moore too closely because his work is plagued with inaccuracies and deliberate deceptions. Why continue to follow his work? He has a template for his movies and methods, and they've repeatedly failed under critical review and fact checking. He is not a credible source. Based on his prior work, I don't think I have to see the film to know where he is wrong. His use of these methods leads me to believe that his work is not geared to my demographic. So yes, I do know that I'm too sophisticated to take at face value any of Moore's work. I'm also sophisticated enough to know that when I come home and books are chewed up that Otto did it, I don't have to see him doing it.
The fact is that Moore does have a Democratic agenda. It's not really rhetoric in that sense. You also admit that he's grandstanding and using shenanigans. You say potato.
The final thing that fries me about this guy is his complete contempt for America and Americans. He says, and therefore we can assume he believes, that Americans are the stupidest people on the planet. Do you honestly believe that we, as a country are THE stupidest people on the planet? We're not smarter than anyone? You're an American, are you the least bit insulted? Don't you wonder where he gets the temerity to call you stupid? Don't you think he may be trying to put something by you? I mean, if we are stupid, wouldn't it be easy to make a film whose premise is patently false but the scenes that comprise the movie are true, and the general population believes it without pause? Does he truly believe we're stupid, or is this another ploy to gain publicity? I'm sure America is a horrible and corrupt place, and the government is in business to make money, but I don't notice many people emigrating, including Moore. I realize it's a simple argument, but it does carry weight. Why would anyone subject themselves to this? You're right, you should learn everything you can about a topic, but you should also conduct your research through credible sources. Moore has shown repeatedly that he is not a credible source.
Squeeze responds:
R:
First of all, I want to assure you that I meant no insult when I insinuated that I did not trust the government and didn't think that they care about us.
When I used "government" in that sense, I meant those at the elite top. I know that you are a caring person, I'm sure that you know many caring people in government. I think people are basically the same--we all want the same things, all want to lead healthy and prosperous lives, etc. Even people of drastically different viewpoints can get along at a one-on-one level--but do you think that one's perspective gets altered at a certain point? As one gains power and money? Now, I'm not saying that power and money are bad--I just think along the lines of our ol' pal Spidey, "With great power comes great responsibility". I think we can both agree that there are people who abuse that responsibility.
Your quote: "It seems that you're espousing the typical anti-establishment, this is a horrible place, the whole government is corrupt, black helicopter conspiracy in everything party line." When one offers criticism about the government, he's automatically labeled as some crazy anarchist? Am I anti-establishment? No--I believe in a government, a SMALLER one. Is America a horrible place? No, I love this country. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. Is the government corrupt? I think in some places, yes--but as you mentioned, you'll get that anywhere. Are there conspiracies? If you're talking about things the government has done that people don't know about (and I'm not talking about situations of national security here), then yes.
I feel that this was an unfair comment.
What is my solution? And what affirmative steps have I taken to fix it? Well, you got me there. I probably haven't done as much as I can. I try to remain up-to-date on politics, I vote, I discuss issues with other people. That's a start, right? But you're right, I need to do more. As I think we all do.
Your quote: "Your statement implies a George W Bush/Osama Bin Laden connection (a Democratic/Moore blah blah blah party line)." You read into my statement, thinking that I was talking about Osama. I'm sorry that I wasn't as clear as I should have been. I meant the Bid Ladens as a family, not Osama. The Bushes and the Bin Laden family have been associates for many years--for example, when GW Bush was running his Arbusto drilling company in Texas, Salem Bin Laden (Osama's brother) invested in the company.
Your quote: "It is NOT a fact that GWB has business ties with OBL or any other ties of any kind. Is Moore implying that Bush and OBL have met? Does Bush have contact with Bin Ladens from Saudi Arabia? Absolutely." Wait, I thought that you hadn't seen the movie. How do you know what Moore is implying?
Your quote: "But this same family has renounced any and all ties/contact/relation to OBL (Some theorize
this is the source of his hatred)." Not according to Yossef Bodansky (director of the House Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare). In a San Antonio Express-News article (9-14-98), he was quoted saying that Osama maintains connections with some of his 24 brothers. The FBI has also doubted the "severing of ties" as they have subpoenaed banks used by the Bin Laden family to look at their financial activities.
I just want to make it clear that I agree with you that one shouldn't get all of the facts from Michael Moore and his films. I encourage people to do research themselves.
Your quote: "The whole intro to the movie re the Saudi flights out of the country after 9/11 is ludicrous after you realize that the person that solely authorized those flights is the same person Moore lionizes in other parts of the movie (Richard Clarke)." Have you seen this movie or not? You keep discussing it like you have. It's confusing.
Your quote: "I haven't followed Moore too closely because his work is plagued with inaccuracies and deliberate deceptions." So how do you know this? What exactly have you seen?
Your quote: " He (Moore) says, and therefore we can assume he believes, that Americans are the stupidest people on the planet." When and where did he say this? It just might change my opinion of the guy...
I didn't intend on starting an e-mail campaign about defending Michael Moore. I've been told that he's a cokeheaded (or used to be) nutjob--remember Molly's bridesmaid Melissa? She used to be his assistant...
Anyways--
I like Moore because he focuses on topics that aren't always addressed. His Democratic agenda aside, I think that things such as corporate downsizing or corporate welfare are important issues. He has the cinematic "pull" to make these movies and get them released. I think that it's great, pushing these issues into the public spotlight. Even if you don't agree with his politics, I think that it's beneficial for someone walking out of "The Big One" (his film about corporate downsizing) to ponder the correctness of companies closing down in this country to pursue cheap labor in other countries.
Please don't take my response as a Democrat/Kerry stance. I won't be voting for him either in the fall.
Toledo's Bloody Son,
Squeeze
My reply:
Sq
I don't mean to belabor the point about government, but your original statement is too sweeping. I still admit to overreacting, but there's a method to my madness, or at least some coherent thought.
I understand and agree with you that power can and does corrupt people, even us saintly government-slappies. But I believe that you're making too big a leap to say that this disconnect exists across the board at the upper levels of government. By disconnect, I mean b/w us grunts who care and toil and sweat, and the big-wigs that comprise the elite. I know that government people are corrupt, I know they make decisions based on their interests. I know that it doesn't affect one party affiliation and not the other. I know these things exist. But working in this environment, even the short time I have, I know those things don't happen across the board at the elite level.
I can tell you this: There is no faster way to become hated, despised, disrespected and discredited as a government employee than by engaging in any corruption. I mean by your co-workers, never mind the voting public. That's important for two reasons; first, you cannot keep this a secret. Especially at the highest levels. You will be exposed sooner or later, but usually sooner. Second, the rest of us government-slappies get pretty honked-off and your leadership factor will immediately go to zero, thus crushing your effectiveness. (Long-winded way of saying that we don't forget).
This is a simple, roundabout, 10,000 feet view of saying that I cannot believe for one second that this war on terrorism is about anything other than what it appears to be on its face. To think this is about the protecting of Haliburton or old business deals for gas pipelines is too far-fetched. An analysis of the escalating terror attacks over the last 10 years reveals a hatred of us that is shocking. After 9.11.01 we as a nation had to make a choice, shrug it off and pursue a "law enforcement" remedy, or take some definitive action. I truly believe that the war on terror has prevented attacks against our country. (It's been easier for the terrorists to go to Iraq and kill Americans than to plan and execute something here.)
I think I realized immediately that the war on terror is something that may never end, but I don't have a problem with that. You're right, with great power comes great responsibility, including fighting terrorism when it's not popular, here or abroad.
I don't think power and money are bad, people who abuse them are bad. Do they affect judgment? Certainly, but not always to the negative.
I know you're political leanings (you shouted, "Vote Libertarian" at your wedding reception. I've got witnesses), but I was afraid you'd bought too much into this conspiracy-in-everything mindset that pervades our generation. I respect your analytical thought process enough to know that at least as of Feb, 2004, you weren't interested in emigrating to Canada or worse.
As an aside, Within limitations, I don't care that the government does things that we don't know about. That's why we elect them. If we wanted to know everything they do, why have a representative government? We could all be senators, but I know you realize the government would instantly grind to a halt. I assume they have to do things, make hard choices and not consult me on every one of them. I realize this leaves room for atrocities that may be facilitated by our government, but I accept that. There are always ways to expose the negative acts of the government and I don't think the government can hide from us.
I retract questioning your affirmative steps. It's not relevant or fair and is just me lashing out at having been stung by the government doesn't care comment. If you're paying taxes, I have virtually no complaint.
As for Moore, no I haven't seen the film and I'm still not going to. I have read reviews from both perspectives (positive and negative) that talk about the movie in depth. That's where my info comes from. I still say this guy is a dope and a hypocrite more interested in making money and he's found his niche. I'm surprised to hear that somebody you know worked for him b/c I've heard nothing but negatives from former employees and co-workers and would be interested to see if that's true in Molly's friends case. You can find him insulting us here; http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/page.cfm?objectid=13583626&method=full&siteid=50143
Interesting that you quote Yossef Bodansky and the link b/w GWB and Bin Laden. Bodansky is the guy who is telling anyone that will listen that there was long-term coordinated cooperation b/w Saddam Hussein and al Queda (even after the fall of Bagdad)and that Iraq had a massive chemical and biological weapons program (WMD) that was supplemented by the North Koreans (Axis of Evil, anyone?). Check his book, The Secret History of the Iraq War. These are the exact reasons this administration stated for going into Iraq. I couldn't agree more. These reasons are in direct conflict with Moore's theory. Maybe this is the guy that is providing the administration with supposed "faulty" intelligence. If you read this guy further, he has some scathing things to say about the prosecution of the war and the terrible state of our intelligence systems, which I also agree with, but I think he makes no bones about why this war is taking place, and it's not about oil or Halliburton.
It's a long winded way of saying that I think we're doing the best we can under the current circumstances. Can we do better? Yes. Will the current Democratic candidate be an improvement? Not just no, Hell no. Is Bush the best thing since sliced bread? Not yet, but he's moving in the right direction (although as a Libertarian, I would think you would be more concerned about his energy policy and his unprecedented [for an R] expansion of government).
Conservatism, man! Groovy! R
Fair enough, but doesn't Moore also have a "very specific agenda?" I guess I agree with the other "very specific agendas." Based on the research I've done on him from the past, I don't need to see the movie to have an opinion. I think I said it before, but in case you missed it, I didn't see the movie. Take my opinion with a grain of salt.
ReplyDelete"I don't need to see the movie to have an opinion."
ReplyDeleteI know that we've beat this dead horse enough--
But isn't the only thing you have an opinion on is other people's opinions about the film? Isn't it always wise to check things out for yourself?
Isn't it wrong to base your opinion of his current movie on the merits of his past work? By this analogy, why would anyone see the "Star Wars" films if they first saw Lucas' "Howard the Duck"?
I just think that it gives a person more credibility in their argument if they've seen/read/etc. the thing that is the topic of conversation?
Why don't you just go see the film? You don't even have to give Moore your money--buy a ticket for another movie and sneak into F9/11.
There's nothing wrong with checking out the opposing viewpoint. I mean, I read NRO and watch Fox News occasionally.